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CatMustard 15 hours ago [-]
So this article is obviously very American, but I'm assuming high quality state-funded (idk about 'government' - funded) journalism isn't exactly rare around the world?
Here in Ireland RTÉ (heavily state funded) provides free, high quality, independent journalism that doesn't pull punches on reporting on failures of the state, including government. The brits have the BBC, which from what I gather works similarly.
Sample of two, but I'd wager this isn't exactly a rare model.
iAMkenough 15 hours ago [-]
The government is run by politicians, so I don’t see that being a possibility anymore.
rayiner 15 hours ago [-]
I do not understand how this fits into any conventional political worldview. Why should the public taxpayer dollars fund a journalism outfit that then follows its own agenda rather than the one set forth by the democratically elected government? How is this democratic?
From 1972 to 1988, anti-socialist Republicans won four elections by landslide margins (8, 10, 18, and 23 points). The coverage of NPR during that time was quite sympathetic toward socialism, and certainly didn't reflect the ideology of the electorate. (My dad, who is a soft-on-socialism Democrat, called it "Radio Moscow"). How does it make sense for taxpayers to pay government journalists who have a fundamentally different view of the world?
Imagine the opposite: Obama's America being forced to pay for journalists who approach the world from the viewpoint of Christian fundamentalism. How would that be democratic?
krunck 14 hours ago [-]
What we have now is a government that tries to shut down all news outlets that are not comprised of journalists who approach the world from the viewpoint of Christian nationalism fundamentalism.
How is that any better? How is that democratic and pluralistic?
rayiner 14 hours ago [-]
> journalists who approach the world from the viewpoint of Christian nationalism fundamentalism
There is no such thing. Only 3-4% of journalists are Republican, and a bunch of those probably didn't even vote for Trump: https://www.theamericanjournalist.org/post/american-journali.... Even explicitly Christian news sources like Christianity Today and National Catholic Reporter have moved to the left as immigration has become the defining issue of politics around the western world.
iAMkenough 13 hours ago [-]
I’m not sure why a journalist would comment on their personal beliefs to anyone, but that study shows Democrat journalists as a minority too.
> About half of all journalists (51.7 percent) said they were Independents, which is about 12 percentage points above the figure for all U.S. adults (40 percent). Overall, U.S. journalists today are much more likely to identify themselves as Independents rather than Democrats or Republicans—a pattern similar to 2013.
rayiner 11 hours ago [-]
There is a tradition of journalists being registered independents. But do you think their world view is liberal or conservative? According to consistent Harvard Harris polling, 55% of Americans agree all illegal immigrants should be deported, not just ones who commit additional crimes. Do you think those independent journalists agree with democrats on that or with republicans?
iAMkenough 11 hours ago [-]
I’d say their personal views don’t really matter, because professional journalism isn’t about agreeing with a political party or about personal opinions.
I think a journalist’s personal political beliefs are as important to their job as a car mechanic’s: very little.
It’s akin to complaining that your family doctor voted for Nixon, like that has anything to do with their medical qualifications.
Because the people want it? You are treating democracy as a kind of populist authoritarianism where unwelcome viewpoints are suppressed. Generally We the People value (or at least used to value) free and fair discussion.
>NPR
Mostly irrelevant in this discussion. The large majority of NPR's funding has always come from member stations and "listeners like you".
>Imagine the opposite: Obama's America being forced to pay for journalists who approach the world from the viewpoint of Christian fundamentalism.
What is there to imagine? Obama's America did in fact pay journalists to do just that. Public media is generally supposed to present a diversity of viewpoints, and leaving out religion would be doing the public a disservice in that regard.
rayiner 11 hours ago [-]
> You are treating democracy as a kind of populist authoritarianism where unwelcome viewpoints are suppressed.
Let’s not play word games. It’s not “populist authoritarianism” to say that, in a democratic society, taxpayers shouldn’t have to bankroll journalists who don’t share their world views.
ionioagnio 11 hours ago [-]
The American version of democracy has a great many protections for minorities, whether they be intellectual, religious, or ethnic. The notion that the majority should pummel the minority into submission is perhaps a version of democracy, but not one compatible with American tradition.
This is why Obama, Biden, and other politicians who support democracy had no problem funding a free and fair press while populist authoritarians have sought to dismantle it.
rayiner 9 hours ago [-]
That's not "democracy," that's constitutionalism, which is inherently anti-majoritarian. But constitutionalism means protection for minority viewpoints, not an obligation for taxpayers to publicly fund media they disagree with.
vrganj 1 hours ago [-]
> That's not "democracy," that's constitutionalism, which is inherently anti-majoritarian
That was a nice sleight of hand, but democracy and majoritariansm are not synonims. IMO majoritarianism is the failure mode of democracy - mob rule. We saw this happen in Hungary, where Orban used his majority to cement sixteen years of one-party dictatorship and only by a miracle got deposed this year.
Pluralism is how democratic institutions can actually be upheld and protections like free speech can be protected from the tyranny of the majority.
vrganj 11 hours ago [-]
Part of democracy is plurality of views.
Shutting down journalists just because they're not ideologically aligned seems a bit antidemocratic to me - it's important for the fourth estate to be an independent watchdog over other institutions.
What you're suggesting is something close to Orbanism or Putinism, where the media apparatus is completely captured by the ruling party. That is not an appealing proposition to me.
rayiner 9 hours ago [-]
> Part of democracy is plurality of views.
A democracy generally will have a plurality of views. But when it comes to voting on what will receive public funding, that's based on having a majority.
> it's important for the fourth estate to be an independent watchdog over other institutions.
That's not democratic. That's giving a single profession the power to check a government elected by the majority.
vrganj 1 hours ago [-]
> But when it comes to voting on what will receive public funding, that's based on having a majority.
Why? That's the reasoning Orban used to purge the media and strengthen his corrupt regime. Private journalism already is beholden to private employers, e. g. Oligarchs like Bezos buying the post. There needs to be an independent counterweight, not what you're asking for - which would be state propaganda.
> That's giving a single profession the power to check a government elected by the majority.
Yes, that is the purpose of the fourth estate in a democracy, just like the third branch of government, which is also supposed to be impartial in their judgements and not be swayed by electoral concerns.
Here in Ireland RTÉ (heavily state funded) provides free, high quality, independent journalism that doesn't pull punches on reporting on failures of the state, including government. The brits have the BBC, which from what I gather works similarly.
Sample of two, but I'd wager this isn't exactly a rare model.
From 1972 to 1988, anti-socialist Republicans won four elections by landslide margins (8, 10, 18, and 23 points). The coverage of NPR during that time was quite sympathetic toward socialism, and certainly didn't reflect the ideology of the electorate. (My dad, who is a soft-on-socialism Democrat, called it "Radio Moscow"). How does it make sense for taxpayers to pay government journalists who have a fundamentally different view of the world?
Imagine the opposite: Obama's America being forced to pay for journalists who approach the world from the viewpoint of Christian fundamentalism. How would that be democratic?
How is that any better? How is that democratic and pluralistic?
There is no such thing. Only 3-4% of journalists are Republican, and a bunch of those probably didn't even vote for Trump: https://www.theamericanjournalist.org/post/american-journali.... Even explicitly Christian news sources like Christianity Today and National Catholic Reporter have moved to the left as immigration has become the defining issue of politics around the western world.
> About half of all journalists (51.7 percent) said they were Independents, which is about 12 percentage points above the figure for all U.S. adults (40 percent). Overall, U.S. journalists today are much more likely to identify themselves as Independents rather than Democrats or Republicans—a pattern similar to 2013.
I think a journalist’s personal political beliefs are as important to their job as a car mechanic’s: very little.
It’s akin to complaining that your family doctor voted for Nixon, like that has anything to do with their medical qualifications.
Overall: 56% Republicans: 77% Independents: 53% Democrats: 37%
Which only polls registered voters not all Americans. So that 55% number isn't exactly as representative as one might believe.
https://cis.org/Arthur/Latest-HarvardHarris-Poll-Shows-Incre...
Because the people want it? You are treating democracy as a kind of populist authoritarianism where unwelcome viewpoints are suppressed. Generally We the People value (or at least used to value) free and fair discussion.
>NPR
Mostly irrelevant in this discussion. The large majority of NPR's funding has always come from member stations and "listeners like you".
>Imagine the opposite: Obama's America being forced to pay for journalists who approach the world from the viewpoint of Christian fundamentalism.
What is there to imagine? Obama's America did in fact pay journalists to do just that. Public media is generally supposed to present a diversity of viewpoints, and leaving out religion would be doing the public a disservice in that regard.
Let’s not play word games. It’s not “populist authoritarianism” to say that, in a democratic society, taxpayers shouldn’t have to bankroll journalists who don’t share their world views.
This is why Obama, Biden, and other politicians who support democracy had no problem funding a free and fair press while populist authoritarians have sought to dismantle it.
That was a nice sleight of hand, but democracy and majoritariansm are not synonims. IMO majoritarianism is the failure mode of democracy - mob rule. We saw this happen in Hungary, where Orban used his majority to cement sixteen years of one-party dictatorship and only by a miracle got deposed this year.
Pluralism is how democratic institutions can actually be upheld and protections like free speech can be protected from the tyranny of the majority.
Shutting down journalists just because they're not ideologically aligned seems a bit antidemocratic to me - it's important for the fourth estate to be an independent watchdog over other institutions.
What you're suggesting is something close to Orbanism or Putinism, where the media apparatus is completely captured by the ruling party. That is not an appealing proposition to me.
A democracy generally will have a plurality of views. But when it comes to voting on what will receive public funding, that's based on having a majority.
> it's important for the fourth estate to be an independent watchdog over other institutions.
That's not democratic. That's giving a single profession the power to check a government elected by the majority.
Why? That's the reasoning Orban used to purge the media and strengthen his corrupt regime. Private journalism already is beholden to private employers, e. g. Oligarchs like Bezos buying the post. There needs to be an independent counterweight, not what you're asking for - which would be state propaganda.
> That's giving a single profession the power to check a government elected by the majority.
Yes, that is the purpose of the fourth estate in a democracy, just like the third branch of government, which is also supposed to be impartial in their judgements and not be swayed by electoral concerns.